Yet Another Maps Question

[Nik]

So, it seems like maps are currently poorly described in the rule book. The entire description of maps is as follows:

Gatherers find new locations to visit by finding map items. A player can visit only one location they have a
map for per BGA cycle (as well as normal locations listed in this packet). Maps may limit the number of
players who can use them (party limit), and may require certain items or impose other special rules.

Maps are a BGA slot item, so we assumed that you had to give that to a Gatherer in order to make them viable. We also assumed that the Gatherer with the map needed to call out specific people for their party to go with them.

It seems like anyone can go, regardless of who had the map?

In addition, all of our maps were provided with tags to explain what was changed by going to those locations. However, none of the maps we purchased in e8 had tags with them. The general answer we got was “go there and find out” which seems to defeat the purpose of having the map. Or, it is indicating to us that we now need to use a soft BGA to find out what the map does, in addition to a hard BGA to actually use the map.

There are a couple issues that players are havjng with this:

1. We have never not known what a location does before, and this change in maps was never communicated to players in any way.

2. Using a soft BGA to activate the map seems to defeat the purpose of buying the map in the first place. We buy the maps because they tell us what we’re getting into. Being told “eh, figure it out” by an NPC is not helpful. That’s why we go to that NPC, he’s theoretically the guy who is supposed to figure it out ahead of time.

3. There is already a glut of items in game that require soft BGAs to figure out what they do. Those Soft BGAs are at a huge premium right now because of how intense the plot of the game has become, and asking someone to use one of those precious plot drops for a profession ia grating.

4. No other profession potentially has to use a soft BGA to get basic use of their profession. Crafters just need to craft. The only Soft BGA items we’ve gotten for professions have been plot related. These maps do not appear to be so.

So I am curious as to why these changes were made, and would ideally love an explanation on on the actual mechanics of maps, so that gatherers can understand a little better going forward just how they work, because the system in place right now is ill-defined at best.

[Praseodymium]

Many of these questions have been on my mind also. In general I find it confusing to have an item with no tag. I have a snake I got at the last carnival that also has no tag and I’m not really sure what to do with it. In general even a tag that says “Use a soft action to study this” would be helpful, even if I’m not super keen on studying things with soft actions unless I have a good idea of what I’m getting out of it.

[Nik]

Yeah, I have some issues with “use a soft action” to study this tags in general? Because you effectively lose a soft action to even figure out what something does. I think a "study this as part of your soft action might be an interesting thing for some smaller items? The books we got from Zaccariah I feel should require a soft action, because they require staff to write book excepts. But I think perhaps having the option to study a single small item alongside a soft BGA could be a good compromise?

[Praseodymium]

The books can be a bit hit or miss, mainly because you have no idea what is in them outside of the title, for instance Poisonous Snakes of the Skar was backstory about the skar rather than a guide to finding and using poisonous snakes, so I went into it expecting some kind of poison plot or information but got a story about where the monsters in the skar come from. It was a very cool story, it was not at all what I was expecting to learn. It might be nice with books if they more directly stated what reading them would accomplish, just so that the result is not disappointing and people can target their actions at tasks they are interested in.
Maps are kindof the same. We aren’t mind readers, and when it comes to BGAs I have an enormous amount of anxiety and would prefer to have very clear expectations about what my results will be going in.

[Praseodymium]

Also to be clear I loved my results, they were just very off from what I was expecting and left me very confused until I figured out how to use the information.

[Staff_Mike_Blue]

Here goes

1. On maps saying what you get when you go there:

This is generally a Find Out In Game thing. Maps tell you what a map tells you, which is widely variable. Mechanically it’s a spot you can spend your profession visiting. You’ll need to go check out these places to see what’s there and get any information the map doesn’t provide you with. I should have given out (and will provide) tags for those maps. They should allow foraging and gathering. There may be limits on the number of people who can visit at once but (see below) due to my not having supplied the tags in time you can bring the whole crew.

2 & 4. On using soft BGA to activate a map

Gatherers spend profession BGAs to visit map locations and get stuff. Sometimes the stuff comes with lore too, but it is firmly a hard/profession BGA thing. If there are ever exceptions (and there probably will be) staff will go to extra lengths to make it clear. I guess someone could spend a soft BGA to go to a location they have a map for and just look around, I would do my best to give them something fun, but of course it would be more along the lines of RP/Lore.

3. On a glut of between games items and the use of soft BGAs on them:

Even if all players coordinated the effort you probably couldn’t get through all of the ‘study’ items, and personally, I intend to keep putting them out. We try to tailor these to the player using them in a way that’s fun, but we’re still just doing our best to tell you the coolest story we can, it doesn’t work out 100% of the time. @VoodooSpecter, I’m glad to hear you were happy with your result even if you didn’t get exactly what you were expecting. Some will be better than others as with most of what we do. I’m happy to have a longer discussion about this system’s design in general, but I don’t want to speak for all of DI staff’s views on that. In short, it’s a natural gaiting mechanism and a way to provide players the opportunity to grab items from mysterious crypts, ruins, and post apocalyptic hell dimensions. The ones I put out usually turn out to be magical items, or grant the user the equivalent of a magical item. Rather than tossing random stuff out I look at who’s researching it and what the item is and try to build something I think will suit them and be in line with the item’s appearance and origins.
(sometimes we know what they do in advance)

And a question in the post on who can go along:
Some maps should show limits on the tag, if I leave them off you should assume that you can bring whoever you like, and kindly bring it my attention in case I fucked up and need to change it urgently for some reason. I didn’t expect to sell maps when I went out as Ismael and failed to follow up with tags.
One gatherer needs to have the map, and currently anyone using it as a BGA slot item can bring whoever they please within the limitations of the tag. People coming along are also using the map as their BGA slot item.
That’s a pain to coordinate and check, so we don’t look closely. If people are concerned we can start auditing these, but I suspect mostly what will happen is that staff will end up waiting to hear back from stragglers who will say “yeah, it’s fine” 99% of the time.

[VoodooSpecter]

My main problem with these maps is that i don’t know how many days advanced gathering skills will cost for them it is that is even available, but it seems like it’s not a soft bga thing so that at least i think is good

[Staff_Mike_Blue]

Damn, I did not account for that.

[Staff_Mike_Blue]

Well, I guess I need to provide those tags.

[Praseodymium]

I also want to add in case I did not before that I LOVE the map physreps and I loved the RP that went in around discussing the features on the map, that was very fun even just to be tangentially involved in.

[Nik]

Yeah, I don’t have the Gatherer advanced skills and never will, but the tags are crucially important for those who intend to used advanced gatherer skills to plan their hard BGAs, and honestly just knowing what if anything I can add Danger to as well. The Zamen Harbor Town, for instance, did not allow Work actions of any kind, so my Daring is useless there. While the Gem Mine only alllows Work actions, so Daring is amazing there.

So yes, please, we really need tags for maps in the future, otherwise our formatting is just totally a shot in the dark, whoch in turn makes stuff harder for staff to parse.

[Nik]

One gatherer needs to have the map, and currently anyone using it as a BGA slot item can bring whoever they please within the limitations of the tag. People coming along are also using the map as their BGA slot item

Emphasis mine.

This was never spelled out anywhere prior to this (that I know of), and could potentially lead to BGAs of people trying to use BGA slots on soft actions while on an adventure to a map location.

In fact, I in my hard BGA mentioned the Zamen Harbor Town Map as being equipped so people could go there, despite actually going to the Valley’s End Mine, because I did not know this was the case.

[Praseodymium]

I think you can use one bga item per action now

Edit: I finished reading the second paragraph and realize now my comment isn’t helpful

[Nik]

Based on this wording from the current BGA submission form, I do not think you can use one item per action. It says per Cycle.

[Praseodymium]

However from the rulebook:
Between Game Slot
○ This slot holds items that confer bonuses between games. You may use one Between
Game Slot item per Action you take. This tag MUST be in your player bag to use the
item. Staff will not move items between bags between games.

[Jess]

I am also interested in a clarification from staff if each action can have a BGA slot item or if only one BGA slot item can be equipped per cycle.

[staff_steve]

The rulebook is correct here; I forgot to amend the form after we made that change. Will do so now.

[Staff_Mike_Blue]

As I’ve said, I’ll produce a tag. Honestly, I wasn’t planning on selling those and players seemed to want more maps, so I decided to handle the tags after the fact. I didn’t do it to upset people, as it seems I clearly have. Next time I’ll stick to my script.

[Nik]

I appologize if I am coming across as upset. I’m really not, in this case. Just was a little flummoxed. Thank you for saying a tag is forthcoming. It is really appreciated. <3

[Staff_Mike_Blue]

Who checked out with these things anyway?